free divorces for everybody?
Published on November 3, 2004 By citahellion In Current Events
Yes, you read that right. I claim that ALL marriages, as currently defined, are unconstitutional. Gay, straight, nonagenarian, octopoid, whatever. Doesn't matter, it's all unconstitutional.

How did I arrive at this extreme conclusion? It's actually pretty simple:

1) The First Amendment states, in relevant part, that "Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion."
This is pretty straightforward. I think a lot of people misread it to say that Congress can't make a law that touches on religion in any way, but that's not what I believe it means. It is intended to prevent Congress from pushing a single national religion like, say, the Church of England, to the exclusion of other religions. In the broader interpretations of today (which have gone rather too far, in my opinion), it has been taken to mean that anything to do with religion is strictly off-limits, which works in this argument's favor, really; but even without that, the gist of this section of the First Amendment is that Congress cannot make a law that favors one religion--or subset of religions--over another.

2) Marriage, as currently constituted in the U.S., is specific to a particular subset of religions.
Okay, this is a little less obvious, but not too complicated. Marriage takes different forms in different religions. In Mormonism, marriage is a union between one man and any number of women. In modern Protestantism, marriage is between two consenting adults, but can be dissolved by mutual agreement. In modern Catholicism, marriage is between two consenting adults and cannot be dissolved except under extraordinary circumstances. (Sure, a lot of catholics may not really follow these rules, but nonetheless that's how it's defined by the religion.) In Hindi, marriage requires only a father's assent for his daughter to marry; her agreement is not necessary.
So. Many forms of marriage. The U.S. legal system defines marriage as between two people and requires that they both agree to it. This clearly disenfranchises Mormonism (Mormons were, in fact, required to disavow polygamy in their state constitution before Utah would be admitted), Hindi, and quite probably several other religions.

3) Therefore, our current state-approved marriage arrangement is unconstitutional.

And now, the solution, which I'm sure many of you can see coming:
Civil unions.

The state sanctions the union of two people as a benefit to society for the purposes of family stability, child-raising skill, and any number of other positive elements. The state disavows any religious overtones to the ceremony. Two people who wish to be married can do so according to their religious beliefs. Just as it is now, though, if they wish to gain the civil benefits that come with their union, they must register with the state and file an affidavit stating that they meet the government's criteria for a civil union and wish to be so recognized. If they do not register, or they do not qualify, then the many and varied governmental benefits that come from being in a civil union (qualifying as a family member for next-of-kin notifications, being covered under "family" insurance, being able to pay extra tax because you're "filing jointly", etc.) will not accrue to you.

Now the other key to this, which many of you may not like, is that according to the Constitution and many other laws of the land, nobody can be discriminated against based on their sex, race, religious orientation, sexual preference, or any of several other criteria. This means that if a civil union is written as a union between two persons of the opposite sex, the law could be struck down on the basis of sexual discrimination. A civil union must be defined as between two people, period. It is allowed regardless of their race, their sexual preference, their sex, their religion, their political affiliation, whatever.

Thus marriage is returned to the clergy where it belongs, and the government is no longer defying the constitution by discriminating against certain religious practices.

(Now I'm sure you're all just dying to tell me what a genius I am, or what a moron I am, or something in between. Please, go right ahead.)

Comments (Page 1)
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on Nov 03, 2004
I actually don't generally disagree with you. (Were there enough qualifiers in there? Good.) Being a newlywed myself, even a religious one, I have no problem with every marriage being a civil union and then perhaps religiously stamped or certified on top of that. For those who want it. (Or, heck with it, for the purists, they could just have a religious ceremony to keep the state from interfering with their religion. I don't care.)

However, I'm not sure I like the idea of getting rid of all things religious because they relate to the state, which seems to be the tack you're taking with this issue. We can't deny that the U.S. was founded by a bunch of Protestant Christians, and we get most of our ideas about marriage from them. I don't see it as a big deal, though I do see a need to expand our tolerance of other customs and cultures.

On the moron <---> genius continuum, I put you further towards the G side.

-A.
on Nov 04, 2004
While I agree with the general point of the article, I'm concerned that it drives us in the direction of moral relativism way too much. While I believe government and religious marriage ceremonies should be different, I don't think we should become a free-for-all society where anything goes simply so we don't offend anyone.
on Nov 04, 2004
I have to lean to the genius side. The argument does make a good amount of legal sense, doesn't disenfranchise anyone, and gets rid of one big national headache. I really think this is a good idea. Everyone can have the civil union and it's perks, and those who want it can get the religious ceremony for their own gratification. The more I think about it the more I likr it. Like they say in the beer commercial - Brilliant!!
on Nov 04, 2004
Moral relativism is a problem that should be addressed by religion or by family, not by the state. The state should be passing laws about things not because they are immoral, but because they are harmful to others in some way, shape, or form.

And I don't see it as a question of offensiveness, but of fairness and equal rights under the law. I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that legislating inoffensiveness is wrongheaded and stupid. (Though on this particular issue, I'm quite sure that legislation that affirms gay people's right to join in a civil union will offend many more people than legislation that prohibits it, based on the vote results that we've already seen.)
on Nov 04, 2004
Hmm genius indeed. This is the strongest argument I have ever heard relating to marriage between same sex members. It also changed my mind on "Unions", in old way, meant "separate but equal" meaning man and woman can marry, but same sex only "union".

But this way, the government don't define marriage at all, just unions. That way, people can vote on unions and who it applies to, while they may marry in whatever church they want to.
on Nov 04, 2004
Citahellion...............YOU ARE A REDICULOUS PERSON!!!
on Nov 04, 2004
Citahellion...............YOU ARE A REDICULOUS PERSON!!!


Now this is what we all have to worry about. There are too many issues that are regulated by the state that are not concurrently regulated by reason. When reason is used to attempt a solution we are met with useless protestations and insults that have no grounding in either logic or common human decency. Unfortunately, these are usually all too effective in swaying those in power, or, as we have seen in this election, changing the law through popular vote (sorry citahellion, I know how you feel about too many apostrophes)

Genius? Yeah...i'll pay that.


on Nov 04, 2004
Yeah. Watch out for troll under the bridge.

Personal insults is not a replacement to arguments that makes sense. Did you seriously think that saying "Citahellion...............YOU ARE A REDICULOUS PERSON!!!" will suddenly change my mind and agree with you? I don't think so. It's as likely as water gun felling a big building such as Pentagon.

I have re-read it and the sheer geniusness is even more appreciated. Hopefully enough people reads this... who knows?
on Nov 04, 2004
Marvin, if you could produce a little bit of actual evidence or argument for your boldly stated claim as it regards this article, I think you'd go a long way towards restoring a little bit of credibility. In the meantime, however, if that's the best you can muster in opposition to my idea, I will take it as a further indicator of the strength of my position.
on Nov 04, 2004
Oh yeah, Marv, since you gave me nothing else to work with: it's "ridiculous". First vowel is an I, not an E.
on Nov 04, 2004

It would be an OK argument if the Federal government had control over marriage, which it doesn't (and that was the biggest issue with Bush wanted to add anything to the amendments that would get the fed involved).

Marriage is also not tied to religion (at least not in my State...which is all I have working knowledge of).  You can have a civil ceremony marriage, which then legally binds you are husband and wife in marriage.  It has nothing at all to do with religion- it's a state set law.

Each State has different laws on marriage and what makes it legal.  States don't have to recognize marriage from another State, and the federal government can't force them (which is why gay marriage could be OK in a State if it was voted in...but states went the opposite way and voted to define marriage as between a man and woman in the last election).

And, for the record, nobody has "outlawed" civil unions.  The debate is allowing "marriage" between two people of the same sex.  Many people who are against marriage between two people of the same sex are perfectly OK with a civil union.

 

on Nov 04, 2004
Hmm, that does rather put a dent in things, doesn't it?

But I would argue that marriage is a religious invention, which the State has merely co-opted; much like Christmas was a religious observance, but is now a federal holiday. True, you don't need a religion to get married, but marriage according to religious custom is extremely common. I'm sure a lot more legal wrangling would be necessary, but I think the argument could be successful.

What's more, I believe that state congresses are bound by the strictures of the Constitution as well. Certainly they don't need to worry about the portions of the Constitution that define the workings of the federal government, but any state that tries to pass a law against free speech or freedom of religion would soon find its law overturned. So any law that is found to violate the 14th amendment's guarantee of equal rights under the law should also be set aside.
on Nov 04, 2004
But I would argue that marriage is a religious invention, which the State has merely co-opted; much like Christmas was a religious observance, but is now a federal holiday. True, you don't need a religion to get married, but marriage according to religious custom is extremely common. I'm sure a lot more legal wrangling would be necessary, but I think the argument could be successful.


Your point on co-opting is very insightful. I agree the State has co-opted marriage. However I think you overlooked something. Religions (as we know them today) have co-opted marriage also.
on Nov 06, 2004
First off I have to agree with citahellion, it isn't the role of the government to pass laws regulating behavior unless that behavior is a danger to others. And he is also correct in what he said in post #12. The Constitution trumps ANY state law about marriage, period.
on Nov 06, 2004

Citahellion...............YOU ARE A REDICULOUS PERSON!!!


wear that one with pride!

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